The posting of it on this website is unfortunate, as are many of the false rumors in the comments both here and on Twitter from anonymous people. Vincent is a coward: came to an old thread less likely to be read and didnt stick around to answer for his comment. We know the examples of Timothy, Titus etc. Harvest Bible Chapel is an evangelical Christian megachurch in Rolling Meadows, Illinois. Harvest Bible Chapel issued a statement today: Pastor James MacDonald came upon a sleeping bear while walking in the back yard of his modest home today. Good Grief. ++++++++++++++++++++. Like they are so far in and so much of their identity comes from being part of the group that the thought of just leaving would be like jumping off of a cliff? All of these men, who were deeply involved long-term under visible, ungodly leadership have a lot to answer for. In January, Gateway held a Pastors School Seminar inside Driscolls church that was all about Church Governance. You will find that many commenters have been on similar journeys, who share stories of pain and disillusionment with their church experiences. Ishy: These churches treat women so badly, but promise men all sorts of things, Matt Chandler says I preach to men. He calls female believers at TVC our girls while hes ensnares them with the beauty of complementarity., NJ: All three words refer to one position or office within the church, that of the elders. Leila: he will be partnering with a music minister from another local church and they are starting a church service in a bar on Sunday evenings. holding fast the faithful word The people of God have forsaken their first love. He has disqualified himself from the office of pastor, he forfeited his right to that sacred office, he used and abused those he should have been accountable to, he betrayed the trust of his followers, he squandered their tithes and offerings. Was it released or leaked? Law Prof: He was evidently so invested in making the Dramatic Point and leaving a Big Impression that I dont think he considered anyone else at that moment. Those extra-Biblical portions comprise 95% of what's been in the show thus far, according to Jenkins, but that and everything else is still run through a proofing process involving scholars of the Bible and people in full-time ministry to make sure it is in harmony with what's in Scripture. The wheels of justice turn slowly. Sadly, it is not uncommon to find that in time of great loss, the church is not really there for them after all, that in case of health problems that make one unable to serve, they are quickly forgotten, that the great majority of those friendships have a tendency to evaporate or even turn to shunning if put to the test; that it was all a grand illusion, after all the time, effort and loyalty invested. i understand the losses you describe, and experience them, too. That might be the case if your view of Christianity is limited to the local mega-show, but there are places in the world, and even in the US for that matter, where Christianity is much more Biblical and robust, and is not even close to fading away. You state things so well that there is little to no need to add anything. I meant Jesus loves us to infinity. Thanks and God bless to all the TWW regulars! seeing the beauty of the deposit of God in them. I guess Dallas understands the power of the written word on the internet. Scott G Winterton, Deseret News. wolves among the sheep, earning their money, Only a public attack and a loss of financial success would drive change at Harvest., Thank you, Fisher, for the encouragement. We have seen that the octopus has many arms, from mega-churches to major christian publications to all of the organizations that feed the monster. God bless. Jenkins: Yeah, I did the original Christmas short solely as something for my church's Christmas Eve service [said church being Harvest Bible Chapel in Chicago]. Wasnt it Groucho Marx who once quipped, I would never join an organization who would have me as a member? . Which answers your later points. In September of 2012, we experienced another provision of God, in the form of the Scottish Rite Cathedrala historical landmark we reclaimed for the gospel in the heart of Chicagos Gold Coastwhich became the Chicago Cathedral Campus. Robert Morris sits on the Board of Driscolls new church or at least he did Driscoll no longer lists Board members on his new website. But the manner in which these charlatans lead indicates they dont really know Him they just use Him. ex HCA Staff: . God is omnipresent and always acting, everywhere, as you find out once youre on the outside. Sunday services, weekly small groups, other events all give meaning to peoples lonely lives, and the rest is mostly fluff. You were part of a workforce which brought a feeling of camaraderie and purpose and fellowship. You dont get to ask for silence now. And today we have 50 year old churches that went afowl 45 years agothey may have all of the teminology down and believe they are the magisterium protecting the truth, but they are dead and Gods Spirit has left. Kids Night Out. Jeff Chalmers That someone who was on the point of dying took time to write these dreams down is remarkable in and of itself. Elsewhere on this thread I talked about a situation where itd be cruel imo to air public matters. Jesus said that you cannot serve both Him and Mammon. Sometimes sincerely wrong. Without any explanation, Dee says she is convinced that Hall is repentant. You could be the pope for all I know. hard for me to imagine a job description for this that commands a big salary, let alone a modest salary. Harvest Christian Academy, a private K-12 school with 650 students, was opened in Elgin . A narcissist is very good at manipulating people, and very patient. And in January, Moody installed Mark Jobe as the 10 th President of the Moody Bible Institute, replacing Thornton who had served as interim president. We were hissing at them Close you eyes! and doing our best to throw ourselves in front of the smallest ones. maybe a z darn, its just the right word. Our youngest daughter, Leah was married this week to Alexei, a wonderful young man! Posted in Theology | Tagged Alpha and Omega, Comparing Myself to Others, Dallas Jenkins, Gavin Stone, God's Sovereignty, God's Will Plan and Priorities, Harvest Bible Chapel, Vertical Church Films | 7 Comments. Or an attempt to conceal more? Unless it was a danger to someone. TS00: I am sorry that my concerns about the institutional church from day one cause you distress. Those of us who have come out of destructive groups like these can assure the survivors that there are other people out there who will love you back into soul health, there are other schools for your children who will treat them right, and some day you will look back on this time and thank God that He pulled you through it. Sunday services, weekly small groups, other events all give meaning to peoples lonely lives, and the rest is mostly fluff. Single pastor, plural pastors, plurality of elders, are pastors even a thing? I initially read that as bought him years of support.Same thing I guess. MacDonald pulled Harvest Bible Chapel from the fellowship, breaking the link between the two. (They had to turn away so many customers while the church buses pulled up singing hymns for what had effectively become sold-out private showings.). It feels like Im eaten away inside. ++++++++++++++++++++. to take stock in ones view, and have confidence in it, is personal responsibility. Samuel Conner: Be imitators of God, as dearly loved children, and live a life of love, even as Christ loved us and gave Himself for us. just This man has no shame. Many a victim of domestic or spiritual abuse might have been better protected by understanding this reality. Currently, the Dallas Jenkins net worth is $1.5 million. Color me cynical here but Im thinking his last name and his media prowess was what was driving that. And perhaps we should remember that Jesus did not come to set up authoritative institutions, but to gather his individual lost sheep. Harvest has impacted me in this way too & I can relate to the emotional impact that you both describe. The Didache and letters of Ignatius and Clement confirm this, as well as other writings from the early second century. Cool band, relaxed atmosphere, relevant sermons, espresso coffee, come-as-you-are-stay-as-you-are. be a spiritual failure, . The office of an elder is not to be taken lightly. No announcement, no warning, just Have something I want you to see. Then suddenly Boom, there it was on the screen. I have never followed P & P, as I do not care for their theology nor their approach. Yet another reason why the financial transparency laws for religious non-profit entities needs to change. Theres an AUTHENTICITY in there. Yowzers, you have me stumped. But if these offices are wrong it means the wheels fell of of the Church extremely early in its history. I am not suggesting that this is or is not the way Jesus intended for his church. The NT clearly outlines the positive attributes I am talking about.. Having re-read the letter a few times now I find it to be more of a CYA document than anything else. So, as you imply, in their heart of hearts they dont really give a big hoot about reading the precious words in red, let alone the rest of Scripture. Ken F (aka Tweed): trained under Peter and James. Clement may be writing as if those offices are an established fact, but for all we know, they could have been set up a few years previously as an organizational attempt and they were used to it. Like they are so far in and so much of their identity comes from being part of the group that the thought of just leaving would be like jumping off of a cliff? And to link them together as a Body of Christ, each one uniquely gifted to be a part of the whole something the institutional church just doesnt appear to get. This campus is a close-knit family of Christ-followers who are deeply committed to living out the gospel and seeing God use their church to impact their community. Well, Amy, youve provided us a rather disgusting look at the character of these characters! No owner of a company will hire just anyone to oversee operations. At that time, very little about Dallas Jenkins' problematic theology and other unbiblical issues with The Chosen were publicly known. This will always happen, there is no way to avoid it. We will note however, that within the church, the world elder is not only a reference to age, but also a position or office of the church. Ishy: Noevangelical: So do you think this is something like Stockholm Syndrome? As my friend says, suck it up buttercup., Max: I believe if Jesus was here today, He would be sitting around the campfire drinking beer with the boys!, In all likelihood, He probably would be. God bless your father-in-law. dont do anything just because you want to (that would be selfish) but wait until you hear from God. love does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth. Women's Bible Study. The Chosen is an artistic retelling of biblical events and it never claims to be a replacement for Scripture nor an addition to the holy Word of God. He produced the independent feature "Hometown Legend" at the age of 25 and shepherded it to distribution by Warner Brothers. And the Christians who took Bibles and Tracts into the theaters for a little Soul-Winning(TM) after the movie had softened up the marks. The setup of elder rule is, in effect, completely unaccountable rule-by-crony. Dallas Jenkins and Dean Butters letters are only two of six submitted to the Elders. Being close only counts with horseshoes and hand grenades. Zero current power holders at Willow Creek Community Church have uttered a single word condemning the sexual crimes of founder and 42 year leader Bill Hybels. Every man has his price, or a guy like me couldnt exist. But, assuming Paul would be cheering them on nevertheless, that opens up a door for whoever to bring in whatever in attempts to do church (and thats exactly what we have in America). So I want to say Than. As another new, unforeseen door opened to bring Harvest to the Aurora area, 200 people from the Elgin Campus were sent south, opening as the Aurora Campus on January 23, 2011. I wish that the decision to be a public figure in this scandal was left to the individual, not to third parties. And particularly sad to see younger church folks not benefiting from the council of senior saints. In 2008, the church was listed by Outreach magazine as one of the 100 fastest-growing churches in America. These Harvest producers were on this site yesterday, meaning it was only adjusted after Dee posted this letter. Thus, I try to insert IMO where applicable. In an interview with the Chicago Sun Times, Jenkins said, "We feel like if people can binge watch . TS00: That community is you all, for whom I am so grateful! Dallas, maybe you should read the red letter Bible the T. Jefferson compiled from the King James Version? In celebration, we hosted Summer Revival at our Elgin campus. Ideally, we wouldnt need Twitter and blogs to expose the truth about corrupt churches, ministries, and their leaders. You are one of the reasons I keep coming back. For you, maybe, but not for most here. What bothers me about the megas is not just the bad theology and oppression, but the sheer size. Thats a rare bird, indeed, in the American church. Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them. (Ephesians 5:11). Those who are truly qualified (I think) know they are so in need of Gods favor to consistently live that out and are only barely qualified by what God has already done in them to that point. And you sound profoundly arrogant. Of course, the big jump you and those who make such claims make is from a shepherd/overseer/elder who is to look after, protect and provide for the flock to a paid, authoritarian ruler. that exploited the public of Harvest Bible Chapel (the profits of which you enjoyed and benefited from). I will admit I now find it kind of shocking that a guy who never knew Jesus in life could muscle his way in and call himself an apostle among the other apostles. I will try and reign it in. But this just doesnt seem to fit. Faith Driven Team September 6, 2021 Bio, Christian investor, Voice. GreekEpigraph: Thats why Im asking LLS (and Ken/Tweed, if he wants) how do these worship men, not God structures ever have any mechanisms at all to keep from going wildly off the rails? We see it mentioned on a few occasions in Scripture where elders were appointed in every city. After reading each post on this matter, I cannot find a single one that brings dishonor to the Lord Jesus. It is always, My friends are here, My kids depend on the youth group, or Who is going to bury me?. One can attempt to form a very egalitarian group where no one is in charge, but it only works until a dysfunctional person makes a power grab. The majority of the people who were questioning you were NOT anonymous (including me), and there is more factual information about HBC on Twitter than there has ever been from HBC leaders own mouths, including yours. A continual cycle without end. I would be interested in hearing about churches your tried or are trying. Indeed. When I first started reading your comment I thought it was serious and that I would have to redact the tweet. Walking in the light means not having to cover anything up and not belly aching when God Himself is the one shouting truth and revealing things from His Mountaintop. It certainly didnt protect anyone. And I know I post too much. What in the world is going on? Ive felt sins breakers dashing, Women, you're invited to the Harvest Women's Conference, Women on Mission: Set Apart on Saturday, June 3. You have lived in a place too long where you have not had to embrace it. can you elaborate on what went on during and after the showing of The Passion Of The Christ? I was led to view Clement of Rome as a sort of beloved father in our historical progression. Let him call for the elders [PRESBUTEROS] of the church, and let them pray over him (James 5:14). Face it, Dallas, HBCs elders messed up BIG TIME by not reining in James a long time ago. I truly believe God provides the grace for elders to walk in the attributes in 1Tim 3, You dont have to watch a person for very long to discern whether that person is a grace filled believer or not. When I did my own looking into it I found dead ends, contradictions, and all kinds of other things that did not fit the protestant narative I was taught. I think this is how these pastors maintain tribal loyalties. Much as I seek to be gracious and forgiving, it is extremely difficult to accept these new confessions at face value. I am sorry you and your family experienced that. I was then presented with opportunity to post another letter that gives insight without including insulting and painful observations about others. Someday Ill be big enough so you cant hit me Bill Hybels, miracle seeker-driven leader, stands credibly accused of sexual harassment and molestation. The way back: 2 Chronicles 7:14 but I dont see much movement in that direction. holy Dallas, you helped run an organization that prospered because of its public image which you helped create. Oh no, we must look to whatever local shcmuck stands in our particular church pulpit and asserts that he speaks for God. Also, your letter simply further bolsters credibility of the excellent work from the Elephants Debt and Julie Roys. Today, CBS Chicago featured Former Harvest Bible Chapel Members Want $72,000 In Donations Refunded, After Pastor James MacDonald Fired Their strong Christian beliefs led Scott and Marsha Thompson to volunteer at Harvest Bible Chapel, and donate more than $72,000 over the course of several years. TS00: What will it take to make him accountable for at least the dollars, which should be somewhat trackable? Check her Twitter. Another campus grew out of the prayers and intercession of a core group in Chicagos North Shore. In fact, Driscolls board is down to him as President and director, Jimmy Evans and Randall Taylor (who I believe is an attorney). Wow. Im holding out hope that my faith in God will survive, but truth be told, some days that seems uncertain as well (, Ex HBC staff, thank you for sharing your pain. It appears he has been a poser, a bully and a thug for a very long time. 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